Nuno Crato: “How about focusing on reality, on data?”

Interview published in the Fundación Episteme, September 22, 2022

License Creative Commons

Eva Serra

“Trust your experience and critical thinking, don’t believe in the absurd,” suggests Nuno Crato, Minister of Education and Science of Portugal from 2011 to 2015. Thanks to his evidence-based measures, Portuguese students achieved their best-ever results in the PISA and TIMSS tests. Crato’s educational vision collides head-on with constructivism, a model that has spread its wings in Europe and the United States during the last decades, flying lightly over the educational landscape.

Nuno Crato was Minister of Education and Science of Portugal from 2011 to 2015. Since 2000, he has been teaching at the Instituto Superior de Economia e Gestão (ISEG), Lisbon University. He was also prorector of the Universidade Técnica de Lisboa He has a Degree in Economics and a PhD. in Applied Mathematics. He is a researcher in probability models and statistics. He has worked for the Higher School of Economics, the Azores University and also for the Stevens Institute of Technology and the New Jersey Institute of Technology.

European Science Prize awarded by the European Commission. In 2008, President Cavaco Silva appointed him Commander of the Order of Infante Don Enrique (Ordem do Infante D. Henrique) and in 2016 Grand Cross of the same order. In 2022 President Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa distinguished him with the Grand Cross of the Order of Public Instruction.

In general terms, what is your opinion of the current state of education in Spain?

There are several statistics and different disturbing signs. School dropout rates are still very high and there is a tendency to undervalue the curriculum and external evaluation. But I don’t want to dwell on it. It is not my country and I am not familiar with the situation. This is an analysis and a debate that corresponds mainly to Spanish people.

How did you find Portugal in terms of education when you took up your ministerial portfolio in 2011?

“Exams were introduced in Year 9, which helped to focus on students’ progress. It’s interesting that this was achieved in successive governments from different political parties”

Portugal had already come a long way. There was a positive reaction to the results of the TIMSS and PISA international examinations, which revealed a worrisome situation in 1995 and 2000, respectively. The following governments, especially after 2003, began to pay more attention to academic results. Exams were introduced in Year 9, which helped to put the focus on student progress.

It is interesting that this was achieved under successive governments of different political parties. In this period, the last government of the Socialist Party (2010-2011), for example, introduced curriculum objectives, which helped to structure the curriculum better.

Were you clear from the beginning about the axes of your reform or were they resolved through a negotiation process?

He had in mind a set of major concerns and proposals for improving the curriculum, assessment and teacher training. Although, of course, I encountered unexpected problems and we had to adapt to many things. However, the axes of the necessary reform were clear. There was a movement towards greater rigour in teaching that had very clear ideas.

It was important that, even with great economic difficulties, schools, parents and teachers recognized the need for greater rigour in education.”

Unfortunately, the economic situation was very complicated, we inherited a country in bankruptcy, with the intervention of the Troika, which ended up absorbing many of our concerns.

However, it was important that, even with great economic difficulties, schools, parents and teachers recognized the need for greater rigour in education. Consequently, both TIMSS and the 2015 PISA report revealed considerable progress in education. We obtained the best international results up to the present.

Were the Portuguese prepared for the changes you proposed?

It is difficult to say…, but I think that, especially during the moments of initial change, there was a great acceptance and understanding of what we were going to do.

What were the steps taken to reach a general consensus with all educational stakeholders? And what is the main or most arduous resistance to overcome?

The most challenging resistance came from some union leaders and some political parties. It is curious that parties that had introduced some of the measures that we put into practice – for example, the teacher certification test – later turned against them when we implemented them. Anyway…

Should we set ideology aside and rely on evidence to guide a good educational system?

I think so. Regarding education, ideology often plays a harmful and contradictory role. Things have their own logic, and sometimes there is an attempt to justify them with an ideological bias, even though different ideologies may share the same ideas.

For example, if we were to read the educational reforms introduced by Minister Gentile [ministro de Mussolini] in Italy, it might seem like we are reading certain contemporary ideologues.

For example, if we were to read the educational reforms introduced by Minister Gentile in Italy, it might seem as if we are reading certain contemporary ideologues who, in the name of a supposed reduction of inequalities, criticize the curriculum organization and the student evaluation. And these ideas are currently associated with the left, specifically the more radical left.

Only that… Gentile was Mussolini’s minister!

It is worth reading what Gramsci, the founder of the Italian Communist Party, and a significant source of inspiration for some modern radical leftists, was writing back then. I subscribe to it practically line by line: he emphasized the importance of fundamental knowledge, of discipline in schools, of a structured curriculum, of students assessment… All of this while criticizing Mussolini’s minister.

According to Gramsci, what the radical left currently advocates in education is a right-wing policy….

So… How about focusing on reality, on data?

What does the evidence say about the curriculum?

Several studies carried out after the first international studies, specifically the ones mentioned earlier,TIMSS and PISA, showed that when the curriculum is well-structured, it is easier to progress. Other more recent studies highlight the same point. I would summarize it as follows:

First, have a progressive, ambitious and well-structured curriculum. Secondly, to highlight essentially the core disciplines: starting with reading and mathematics, then the sciences, arts and languages, and then other subjects. Third, to have a curriculum based on knowledge and not on vague competencies. Fourth, adapt everything to the curriculum: textbooks, evaluation.

What other evidence should we take into account to ensure that a country’s education works as effectively as possible?

Assessment, properly implemented and together with support measures for students with more difficulties, serves not only as an incentive for the progress of all but also as a social equalizer.

The need for assessment at all levels, formative assessment in classrooms, summative assessment within schools, and national standardized assessment at the end of each educational stage. Assessment, properly implemented and together with support measures for students with more difficulties, serves not only as an incentive for the progress of all but also as a social equalizer.

The demand, which you advocate to achieve good academic results, is increasingly disparaged, just like assessment tests. What results can be anticipated with such lenient measures that are being implemented? At what stage is Portugal now?

Unfortunately, Portugal’s situation worsened from 2016 onwards. Both the PISA 2018 and TIMSS 2019 reports showed a decrease in the average cognitive performance of students; and this occurred long before the pandemic.

And perhaps even more negative: these international assessments showed an increase in inequalities in Portugal, such as a reduction in the performance of the most disadvantaged students. It is tragic: A policy of reducing rigour, promoted as a policy in favour of the most disadvantaged, actually ends up harming them. As we said then, “educational rigour is the great ally of the disadvantaged”.

What is your opinion of the competencies in the curriculum that are so fashionable in so many countries around us? In your opinion, what would be the main reason for this educational strategy?

This issue is crucial. First of all, I don’t think anyone knows what competencies are. Sometimes they appear as a set of knowledge and skills; in other words, simply as all that education is; at other times, they appear as a synonym for capabilities or skills. Secondly, I believe that comparing skills with knowledge is absurd since knowledge and the ability to apply it go hand in hand.

I believe that comparing skills with knowledge is absurd, since knowledge and the ability to apply it go hand in hand.

In conclusion, knowledge and its applications must be learned. It is not a matter of choosing between one or the other.

What is important, however, is how teaching is organized. Should it be organized around knowledge or competencies, i.e. by applications? Applications are different things, unstructured, involving implicit or explicit use of knowledge. Knowledge is structured in disciplines, with sequence, logic and continuity.

If we organize teaching around competencies, we focus on applications, necessarily sporadic, however interesting they may seem. By doing this, students come across specific topics and teaching becomes really uninteresting. The student goes through a series of “educational experiences”, as they are called in educational jargon; in other words, he acquires a set of scattered competences and do not develop a structure of thought or mental frameworks that help him understand the world and make progress.

To cite some of the current deficiencies, our students have reading comprehension problems, lack of general knowledge, use of a limited vocabulary – especially those who are more disadvantaged. So as not to increase the length of the question, isn’t there enough evidence to understand that something is going wrong? For what reason do you believe that those who can change it don’t do it?

Because that would clash with many of the established interests, ranging from those of many so-called “education experts”, who literally make a living by convincing others of their theories, to those of several union leaderships, who advocate for the non-evaluation of results as a way to promote everyone, apparently without realizing that what they are promoting is mediocrity.

Based on your political experience and in realistic terms, would you say that European states have the ability to make educational decisions freely or are they subject to certain recommendations or pressures?

States and governments always have internal and external pressures, but they have the ability to change things. They only need two things: to know what they want in terms of education and to have the courage to defend and implement it. Unfortunately, they often lack both.

Countries with good educational results, such as Singapore, China or South Korea, adopt a model based on effort, curriculum and assessment. Does this phenomenon correspond to antagonistic models coexisting in globalization? Could this difference change the Western course to which we are accustomed?

If this trend continues, it is very likely that Asian countries will quickly overtake the Western world. And, in many aspects, this is already happening.

Yes, if this trend continues, it is very likely that Asian countries will quickly overtake the Western world. And, in many aspects, this is already happening.

Let us take as an example the two regions of the planet that were facing development problems at the end of the war: South America and East Asia. The countries of the first region failed to develop an educational model and are still having significant problems in doing so. East Asia, in contrast, opted for a rigorous model, and this has led to unprecedented economic development.

Why are there teachers who endorse the “new pedagogies” -which are not new at all-, while those who feel uncomfortable with lowering standards and denouncing inequality become outcasts, anachronistic, etc.? What would you say to one group and to the other?

To teachers I would say: trust in your experience and critical thinking, do not believe in the absurdity, completely contrary to experience and logic, that they are trying to impose on you. Ideas that are absurd and contrary to experience do not become true just because they have been said by those who proclaim themselves as specialists.

You support students with academic difficulties through reading comprehension programs, VET support and the dissemination of knowledge and educational evidence. Do you consider these three axes necessary to overcome school dropout?

They are essential to mitigate school dropout. In Portugal, in the last two decades, we have made extraordinary progress in this regard. The school dropout rate was around 45% in 2000 and now it is below 6%.

Observe the experience of other countries. Read, for example, the texts of many experts from around the world who reflected on international results, specifically from the PISA 2018 report.

From your experience as the chief education officer in Portugal, an expert in mathematics and statistics, and with the data supporting the best results in education in the history of your country during your mandate, what would you say to the Spanish?

Observe what we did between 2003 and 2015. Look at the experience of other countries. Read, for example, the texts of many experts from around the world who reflected on the international results, specifically from the PISA 2018 report. I may suggest different open-access chapters of my book Improving a Country’s Education from Springer Publishing. And reflect on the topic.

Interview with Nuno Crato in Portuguese

Access to the webinar held on September 21st (ES)

Access to the webinar held on September 21st (PT)

Source: educational EVIDENCE

Rights: Creative Commons