Interview with Joan Josep Carvajal Martí, dean of the Faculty of Chemistry at the Rovira i Virgili University and new president of the Spanish Conference of Deans of Chemistry.

Joan Josep Carvajal: «We do not rule out, from the universities, calling for larger-scale demonstrations and protests»

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Eva Serra

Two months ago, the Department of Education of the Generalitat de Catalunya, currently under socialist rule, announced a restructuring -merger and reduction of hours- of science subjects for first-year of Baccalaureate (high school). The measure has sparked all kinds of criticism among experts, mainly teachers, who must deal with the lack of scientific knowledge that is currently evident among Catalan students (Catalonia is the Community that dedicates fewer hours to scientific subjects in ESO –compulsory education).

Joan Josep Carvajal Martí, current Dean of the Faculty of Chemistry at the Rovira i Virgili University, in Tarragona, and new president of the Spanish Conference of Deans of Chemistry. Has a degree in Chemistry, a master’s degree in Experimental Chemistry and a PhD in Chemistry from the URV. He was a Fulbright postdoctoral researcher at Stony Brook University (USA), and a Ramon y Cajal researcher between 2006 and 2011 in the Department of Physical and Inorganic Chemistry at the URV, where he is currently an associate professor. Since 2019 he has been a visiting professor at Harbin Engineering University (China). His university is undertaking actions to attract students with better academic records to the courses offered by the Faculty of Chemistry. We spoke to him about the current measure and its impact on higher education courses.

As dean, what is your opinion of the Department’s proposal to unify subjects such as physics and chemistry or biology, geology and environmental sciences?

The problem does not lie that much in the unification of the subjects themselves, but in the reduction of hours that is proposed in their teaching. This is especially serious in the reduction that is proposed in general for all students, although the possibility of programming optional subjects is offered to expand the content of these subjects. This measure will lead to a reduction in the basic and fundamental knowledge that most students learn about subjects such as physics, chemistry, biology or geology. These aspects, although society in general does not perceive it, nor some educators, especially those in charge of developing curricula at the administration level, are fundamental in transversal qualifications such as ours, Chemistry and Biochemistry.

Most scientific societies have openly opposed this measure. The other day, the Official College of Chemists of Catalonia together with the Association of Chemists of Catalonia published a very forceful document. Have you received a response from the Department?

It is logical that most scientific societies, and not only these societies, but also all the deans of the Faculties that teach science qualifications in Catalonia have opposed this proposal. In addition to the document published by the Official College of Chemists of Catalonia and the Association of Chemists of Catalonia, all the rectors of the universities that are part of the ACUP, the Catalan Association of Public Universities, issued a joint statement on December 19, 2024 regarding the draft decree to modify the regulations for high school education.

«What is needed more than ever is to support solid and quality education, especially by increasing skills in the subjects of natural and experimental sciences»

In this statement they expressed their utmost concern about the information provided by the Department of Education and Vocational Training of the Generalitat de Catalunya. It was stressed that it was necessary to ensure the training of high school students for their qualification in the various fields of knowledge and in the corresponding scientific subjects, guaranteeing a solid education that allows preparing future generations as critical and competent professionals. That is why the new proposal for the organisation of the various science and technology subjects was of particular concern, since it meant significantly reducing the acquisition of appropriate skills and knowledge. And these measures were in contrast to the observed results, such as the complexity of society with the growth of misinformation and pseudoscientific discourses, as well as the poor results in international assessments of our students in the pre-university stages.

Therefore, it was concluded that what is needed more than ever is to sustain solid and quality teaching, especially by increasing skills in the subjects of natural and experimental sciences, which include physics, chemistry, earth sciences, and biology, but also in technology and mathematics. The rectors of the Catalan public universities urged the Department to reconsider its proposal, and invited the government to work together and take advantage of the experience and firm commitment to a robust and quality educational system.

Likewise, an initiative was promoted last December in the Catalan Parliament to urge the Government to back down on this issue, a proposal that unfortunately did not go ahead.

«The Department’s response to this avalanche of demonstrations has been to schedule a series of meetings (…). However, to this day we are still awaiting the outcome of the conclusions reached in these meetings»

The Department’s response to this avalanche of demonstrations has been to schedule a series of meetings during the first half of January 2025 with universities, scientific associations, such as the scientific branches of the Institut d’Estudis Catalans (IEC) and professional associations to discuss the proposed organisation of high school education. The objective of the meetings, in addition to informing about the options, was to listen to different opinions and work to agree on itineraries with the educational community that generate a minimum impact on the educational quality and scientific training of high school students. However, we are up to now still awaiting the outcome of the conclusions reached in these meetings.

Do we know of similar precedents (reduction of scientific subjects) in any other country?

The Department of Education and Vocational Training justifies this measure in order to adapt the Catalan baccalaureate curriculum to state regulations, preventing students in scientific baccalaureate from losing quality in their education, by proposing itineraries that adapt to current regulations. However, we start from a reality and that is that our students in Compulsory Secondary Education (ESO) are the students in the whole of Spain with the least hours of teaching in scientific disciplines. If we now also reduce the hours of teaching in these disciplines in the Baccalaureate, this difference, rather than bringing us closer to the situation in the rest of the Autonomous Communities, makes it even worse.

«The various educational laws that have been passed in our country since the LOGSE (1990)  have not given much value to the teaching of science»

Back in 1997, colleagues from the Department of Experimental and Social Sciences Education at the University of Valencia published a study in which they highlighted the decrease in the number of students studying science baccalaureate and optional science subjects. Among the causes they identified for explaining this decrease in the number of students were the organization of the educational system, as well as the negative image and evaluation that science has among the students themselves. The different educational laws that have been passed in our country since the LOGSE (1990) have not valued the teaching of science too much, as can be seen in terms of timetables and optional subjects, making science subjects only compulsory up to 3rd year of ESO with only 2 hours of Physics and Chemistry and 2 hours of Biology and Geology, less than other subjects that have 3 or 4 hours and are also compulsory up to 4th year of ESO. Furthermore, at the high school level only 3 scientific subjects are taught per year, which represents 12 hours per week out of more than 30. On the other hand, Spain is the only European country that does not have Physics and Chemistry separated in the first year of high school.

This situation is not exclusive to our country. In the United States, for example, this study showed that 7,100 high schools did not teach Physics courses, 4,200 did not teach Chemistry courses and 1,300 did not teach Biology. This is also associated with a sustained decrease in students who enroll in university courses in the field of science, which in the case of Chemistry reaches a decrease of almost 70% in very few years, and which recently caused some universities in the United Kingdom and also in the United States to begin to close Chemistry Departments, questioning their economic viability.

«The deans of the faculties in which science degrees are taught at Catalan universities we are in contact via email, and discouragement is widespread»

What is the mood among your colleagues at other universities?

The deans of the Faculties that teach science degrees at Catalan universities we are in contact via email, and there is widespread discouragement. Just as the Government reversed its measure in a matter of hours with the reduction of teaching hours for literature, this has not happened in the case of science, and this is very worrying. Despite the meetings at the Department of Education and Vocational Training, to date we have not been informed of what corrective measures the Government will take.

What can it mean in academic terms for students and teachers if this measure is not reversed?

First of all, if this measure is not reversed, it will imply a lack of preparation for secondary school students to access scientific and technological university degrees, including engineering. To access these degrees, a solid training in physics, chemistry, biology and geology, as well as in mathematics, is necessary. If we reduce the number of class hours devoted to these subjects in secondary education, we will be favouring  students who access university studies lack this solid base. This will force universities to have to dedicate efforts to correct these deficiencies, without this affecting the educational quality of our graduates.

These measures will necessarily translate into greater pressure on the content level in the first university courses to incorporate this knowledge, and which will allow the specific content of each of the courses to be built on this more solid base. For the student, it will imply a greater dedication to studies, in a paradigm that is currently changing, and in which more and more students are forced to combine studies and work. Therefore, we can already sense an increase in the dropout rates from university studies due to not being able to cope with this greater dedication, and therefore a lower number of graduates in the different university degrees in scientific and technical disciplines.

«At the teaching level, it is clear that this will also have repercussions, with an additional effort to introduce fundamental aspects of Chemistry, Physics, Biology and Geology into the curricula of the first courses that until now were considered to be completed at the pre-university stage»

At the teaching level, it is clear that this will also have repercussions, with an additional effort to introduce fundamental aspects of Chemistry, Physics, Biology and Geology into the curricula of the first courses that until now were considered to be completed at the pre-university stage. This will necessarily be accompanied by an increase in the content of these subjects on which the structure of the higher courses is based, with the same number of teaching hours for the different subjects, since our universities cannot afford an increase in the teaching load and strength, so the pressure on teachers will be considerable. This will require the implementation of autonomous learning strategies for students to delve deeper into these fundamental aspects, an issue that not all students can assume and achieve in the same way, and where personal and economic aspects play a very important role.

Avoiding the decrease in the educational quality of our graduates is essential, since in the case of degrees with professional attributions, such as most engineering degrees, the skills that our graduates must acquire are set by the BOE. But for those degrees without professional attributions that currently have international accreditations, such as the international quality seal ‘Eurobachelor’ at the level of chemistry, these skills have been evaluated by external experts on standards established at the European level by the European Chemistry Thematic Network Association (ECTN). These standards have been defined according to the principles of quality, relevance, transparency, recognition and mobility contemplated in the European Higher Education Area. The decline in the quality of our qualifications could lead to us losing these accreditations and could hinder the mobility of our students to other European universities to pursue master’s or doctoral studies, which are currently automatic with these accreditations.

“Students from different educational centres and from different geographical areas arrive at university with unequal training”

One of the effects that its critics denounce is also the inequality that it can generate in students, given that not all centres will offer all the non-compulsory subjects.

Indeed. We already perceive this inequality today, where students from different educational centres and from different geographical areas arrive at university with unequal training. That is why, almost 20 years ago, we began to implement optional courses in Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics at the Rovira i Virgili University, which are completely free and are taught before starting the first year of any scientific or technical university degree, to make it easier for all students to have the same educational level and to know the same training content in any of them. One might think that with the PAU this effort should not be necessary, but the second year of high school has become a course in which students are specifically prepared to pass these exams, forgetting that there are other equally important and necessary contents in these scientific disciplines that are not part of the syllabus to be prepared for the PAU.

Now, if we also find ourselves with the situation where the student has not had the opportunity to take these non-compulsory subjects because the educational centre from which they come did not have the capacity to programme them, this situation will be aggravated even more, and we will have to use much more effort and resources, both at the teaching level and at the student level, to reduce these inequalities.

For more than twenty years these subjects have been taught separately. Why do you think this measure is coming now?

As I mentioned before, the image and assessment that society in general and students in particular have of science is negative. This contributes to the proliferation of pseudoscientific aspects more than ever with the expansion of social networks, and to the population without the training that allows them to be critical about these aspects, taking them for granted and proven. Following the COVID pandemic, scientific denialism and conspiracy theories have proliferated exponentially in our society, to the point that an anti-vaccine activist, who has even claimed that the use of vaccines is related to autism in the United States, such as Robert F. Kennedy Jr., has been appointed Secretary of Health and Human Services of the United States, something unimaginable a few years ago.

«Science has this negative view, which must be combated with information and reinforcement of scientific vocations and not through a reduction of content to encourage students to pass these subjects more easily»

In an effort, I believe mistaken, to try to make it easier for students to pass these subjects, and thus improve the image and appreciation of science in society, this initiative to unify the subjects and reduce the number of class hours has now arrived. But scientific disciplines require effort and perseverance, and they are far beyond the immediacy that dominates all aspects of our current society. This is partly why science has this negative view, which must be combated with information and reinforcement of scientific vocations and not through a reduction of content to help students pass these subjects more easily.

Catalonia is already the first Community that dedicates fewer hours to scientific subjects in ESO. How do high school students today reach university with knowledge of Chemistry?

Indeed, this is the case. And as I mentioned before, this has forced universities to make efforts to correct deficiencies and inequalities in the students who access our degrees. In the specific case of Chemistry knowledge, we have been forced to implement a specific course on the fundamentals of Chemistry, which we know as course zero, which is developed intensively during the first 2-3 weeks of September, with the aim that all students who enter our degrees have the same knowledge in aspects of Chemistry.

It is curious to observe a trend that is becoming more pronounced year after year, and that is that in order to obtain the highest marks in the PAU in order to access the university degrees that are most popular and attractive to students, they avoid taking those subjects in high school that traditionally involve lower marks. This includes physics, biology or geology, but also chemistry. Students are accessing the Chemistry degree who have not taken this subject during high school, with the training deficiencies that this entails with respect to this discipline.

«There are students that are accessing the Chemistry degree who have not taken this subject during high school, with the training deficiencies that this entails with respect to this discipline»

How would you say this affects the level of knowledge once they finish the degree? And in the PAU tests?

As I have already mentioned, we cannot allow these situations to jeopardise the educational quality of our qualifications due to the negative effects that this could have on our graduates. Therefore, universities guarantee that our graduates continue to have the same skills necessary to develop the professional opportunities that derive from our qualifications. This is essential in the field of Chemistry, as we well know at the Camp de Tarragona. Chemistry is a discipline whose industrial development implicitly entails risks, both at a social and environmental level. Therefore, despite not being a regulated profession with professional attributions, as is Chemical Engineering, we must guarantee that our graduates are aware of the risks and potential effects that their profession entails and that they are very well prepared to face them.

The Faculty of Chemistry at the Rovira i Virgili University is ranked highly in national and international university rankings, and is the university that appears in the U-ranking of universities prepared by BBVA in conjunction with the Valencian Institute of Economic Research (IVIE) in our country. Furthermore, although it has been among the 150 best universities in the world in the field of Chemistry in the prestigious Shanghai ranking for years, this year it is for the first time the only Spanish university in this section of the ranking. Therefore, we cannot allow initiatives such as this to affect the level of knowledge that our graduates have once they finish their degree, and we will do everything wich is in our hands to prevent this, even though this implies establishing stricter requirements for continuing with our studies.

“Measures that had been abandoned in the past, such as establishing prerequisites for enrolment in more advanced subjects, have had to be re-established”

In this sense, measures that had been abandoned in the past, such as establishing prerequisites for enrolment in more advanced subjects, have had to be re-established in order to ensure that students follow the curricular itinerary in a coherent manner, first acquiring the knowledge that allows them to lay the foundations for the following subjects. Possibly, situations such as the current one, if they end up materialising, will force us to establish more restrictions of this type, which may mean that for some students, degree studies will be extended beyond the four years that are currently established.

What long-term consequences can we foresee, for example, in terms of productivity and competitiveness in research?

I would like to think that through the measures that we will establish at the universities we will not have long-term consequences in these areas that you mention, but it is true that the effort at the teaching level that we will have to make will affect to a certain extent the scientific productivity in the research that university professors carry out. If we have to dedicate more hours to teaching issues, we will obviously have less time to devote to research, and this can be counterproductive for both professors and students.

If there is one aspect in which we at the Faculty of Chemistry at the Rovira i Virgili University have excelled for many years, it is that the teaching that our professors impart incorporates the latest advances in the sector through the research that we ourselves carry out. This allowed us to obtain the accreditation of the interaction between research and teaching with the highest rating from AQU Catalunya. This accreditation highlights that our teaching staff not only excels in research, but that this is an integral part of our teaching, and therefore guarantees that our students receive the most advanced knowledge in the fields of Chemistry and Biochemistry. Maintaining these standards of excellence will be one of our priorities, so we will have to make the necessary efforts, even if it affects the number of graduates of our degrees, or lengthens the average duration of our degrees.

“Given that our political leaders seem to be deaf to the complaints that universities, scientific associations and professional associations have expressed, perhaps initiatives like this are necessary”

About twelve hundred teachers of scientific subjects have launched a platform called “Ciències en Perill” (Sciences in Danger), with a sufficiently clear manifesto and various protest actions. Do you think that it is the teachers who should take initiatives like this in the face of continued changes in specialties and in education in general? As the joke goes: “Is there anyone else?”

Given that our political leaders seem to be deaf to the complaints that universities, scientific associations and professional associations have expressed, perhaps initiatives like this are necessary. I would like to remind you that through actions like this one, the presentation of popular legislative initiatives can be initiated. Therefore, with this type of action we can force our political leaders to have to take a position regarding situations like the one we are dealing with, and allow us to choose the direction of our vote in future elections.

What actions do you plan to take if this measure is approved?

As I said before, all the deans of the faculties of the Catalan universities that teach science degrees are in contact. Although no specific actions have yet been proposed beyond the statement issued by the ACUP last December, if the result of the meetings with the Department of Education and Vocational Training is not as expected, we do not rule out, from the universities, calling for larger mobilizations and protests against these measures and to guarantee the scientific training of secondary school students in our country.

Source: educational EVIDENCE

Rights: Creative Commons