Europe must make way for enlightened elites to rethink its educational model

This interview is dedicated to Eugenio Nasarre, in memory of him and his intense commitment to education

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Eva Serra

This is, possibly, the last interview of Eugenio Nasarre. It was conducted on Thursday, January 25 in Madrid, two days before his passing and an hour before his intervention alongside the former Minister of Portugal, Nuno Crato, at the conference organized and led by Francisco López Rupérez, director of the Chair of Educational Policies at Camilo José Cela University. With these three accredited experts, we discussed education.

Europe is facing significant international conflicts of various kinds and does not seem to have a consensus roadmap in the face of these challenges. Are we in a structural crisis and, consequently, of an educational model?

Eugenio Nasarre: There has been an accumulation of problems and challenges in Europe like never before since the birth of the European Union. Climate change, the weakening of some democracies, and the war in Ukraine. This war is the biggest challenge for Europe since 1948. European society, which had been focused on other prosperity objectives where peace was the budget, where the well-being of citizens was thought of, has been radically disrupted by the war in Ukraine. The current mindset of Europeans is not prepared for this. And, unfortunately, there has also not been a configuration of the elites to respond to this issue. These are two significant shortcomings that prevent optimism.

Eugenio Nasarre: “European society, which had been focused on other prosperity objectives where peace was the budget, where the well-being of citizens was thought of, has been radically disrupted by the war in Ukraine”.

In this juncture, the educational model is affected. A rethink should be made, not only of politicians but also of cultural, intellectual, and academic elites to see the insufficiencies of the current educational model in the face of current challenges. When the European Union was projected at the Hague Congress (1948), among the eight hundred people convened by Churchill, there were twenty or thirty university rectors and academics. A debate took place that gave way to fundamental ideas, with education among them. Cooperation between European universities and the introduction of a common educational line is now necessary. We would have to work on a rethink of educational schemes that, according to international reports, are not going well.

The latest PISA report has confirmed that most European countries are getting worse. However, the implementation of measures has been different.

Nuno Crato: The PISA results have accelerated action in France, which coincides with the program and mentality of the current Prime Minister, Gabriel Attal, and it’s President, Emmanuel Macron. I think for them it has been one more event to confirm the need for change. Some countries, such as the Netherlands, already had in mind to review their educational systems and were looking at the data carefully before the publication of this latest report. But there are states that have not addressed the problem with the necessary seriousness, and that is worrying. There are governments that do not interpret the gravity of the situation and, of course, it is more difficult to take measures in this way.

Eugenio Nasarre: It is more than suspicious that practically all Western European countries have regressed. This is a problem of European dimension. The European Commission should conduct a rigorous examination of the causes. My hypothesis is that the competency-based approach may have had a very negative influence. It has been very poorly interpreted in pedagogical sectors and Spain is an emblematic example, with the devaluation of knowledge. In Scotland’s case, the competency model was adopted very early and in a very maximalist way. They have now reached the conclusion that it has been a mistake for their educational system and have decided to radically rethink it to return to the approach where knowledge is prioritized as a base. In Germany and Italy, serious educational debates are already taking place. There are no competencies without knowledge. Reviewing this diagnosis is necessary for all of Europe. The PISA report has sounded a clear alarm bell.

Numerous responses across Europe have attributed the disappointing PISA results largely to the pandemic. 

Nuno Crato: During the pandemic, a select few countries – namely Singapore, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan – saw improvements in PISA. These countries prioritize teaching over entertainment, and are constantly seeking ways to enhance their educational systems. Other countries managed to maintain or suffer less, like Estonia, with the best score in Europe. The closure of schools may have had an influence, but it was not the sole determinant. Upon examining the report’s results, particularly the decline in scores relative to the duration of school closures, it was observed that some countries managed to secure better positions despite longer closures. This underscores the importance of educational policies.

Nuno Crato: “During the pandemic, a select few countries – namely Singapore, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan – saw improvements in PISA. These countries prioritize teaching over entertainment, and are constantly seeking ways to enhance their educational systems”.

One of the political issues in the EU’s recommendation to develop competencies in the educational field was based on the challenges of the labour market.

Francisco López Rupérez: Back in 2000, I had the opportunity to witness the inception of the institutional approach to competency-based curriculum through the DeSeCo project by the OECD. By 2006, with the publication of the European framework of key competencies, I raised concerns about the direction this approach was taking. From what was being published in Spain, it seemed that the circumstances were being exploited to shift the focus of the approach. DeSeCo does not in any way marginalize knowledge. It adopts a forward-looking approach, anticipating the challenges ahead. In this context, and particularly in instrumental disciplines, it proposes that students acquire metacognitive skills, but this must obviously stem from knowledge; there is no other viable way. This orientation has been distorted and has evolved into what we see today. As Eugenio points out, a coordinated effort is required across Europe to rectify these approaches.

Artificial intelligence has sparked a debate in both the job market and education sectors. Is it a threat or an opportunity?

Nuno Crato: Throughout history, new technologies have been the source of both hopes and fears. For instance, when Edison invented the kinetoscope in 1897, there were predictions that moving images would replace text. Around 1970, there were speculations that computers would replace teachers. I believe we need to approach these changes with a sense of calm, yet without losing vigilance. Today, artificial intelligence has the ability to write an essay. The challenge for teachers is to discern how the text has been constructed. In this respect, AI could pose a problem. However, it could also be very useful for preparing subjects. The goal is to optimize what works and remain alert to what does not. I foresee this as a quiet revolution.

Francisco López Rupérez: Advances in neuroscience provide a reason for optimism regarding the role of teachers in the future of artificial intelligence. In education, it’s crucial to distinguish between the cognitive and emotional realms. In the cognitive domain, AI has the potential to significantly transform education. However, in the emotional domain (which AI can already recognize and apply in fields like marketing and finance) its educational application is prohibited by European law on AI.

Francisco López Rupérez: “In education, it’s crucial to distinguish between the cognitive and emotional realms. In the cognitive domain, AI has the potential to significantly transform education. However, in the emotional domain (…) its educational application is prohibited by European law on AI”.

When considering the potential replacement of teachers by AI, it’s important to differentiate between recognizing emotions, which AI can already do, and effectively interacting emotionally with students. The latter is a characteristic of good teachers, as supported by available evidence and case studies. For instance, when Albert Camus wrote a letter to his teacher, Louis Germain, after receiving the Nobel Prize, he acknowledged not only his intellectual support but also his emotional guidance. The unique combination of a good teacher lies in a masterful mix between demand and affection. At that point, neuroscience helped us to understand the basis of these mechanisms. Cognitive neuroscientist Joaquín Fuster elucidates this well through his model of the “perception-action cycle”, a construct that refers to the inextricable interaction between the cognitive and emotional domains. Precisely for this reason, artificial intelligence will never be able to replace good teachers.

Teacher dissatisfaction is on the rise in several European countries. How can this discontent be addressed and the profession made more appealing?

Nuno Crato: Teacher discomfort often stems from two factors: a lack of purpose in schools and an absence of external evaluation. Firstly, when there is a clear curriculum, ideas, and programs, a sense of function or mission is stimulated. When this sense of purpose is lacking in schools, it is perceived by both students and teachers, leading to a devaluation of the school’s worth. If the teaching becomes dispersed, or if the teacher’s role morphs into that of a coach, indiscipline increases, which in turn impacts the teacher. Secondly, the support of national evaluation is crucial. Without it, teachers may feel isolated in their efforts to elevate knowledge.

Francisco López Rupérez: We possess robust empirical evidence that identifies the role of teachers as the critical factor for school success. The question is whether the governments of various European countries have paid attention to this fact in terms of designing and implementing genuine policies for managing teacher talent. These policies pertain to access to the profession and the development of a professional career, encompassing incentives, training, evaluation, and promotion. In my opinion, particularly in Spain, these two key pillars have not received adequate attention. The result is a system that fails to improve. Moreover, in today’s world, many teachers have alternatives in the business sector. If we do not address this, we will face increasing challenges with the recruitment and retention of teachers in the system, particularly in STEM subjects.

To what extent are external evaluations indispensable? Could the European Union establish common criteria to implement them?

Nuno Crato: At present, I don’t believe it’s possible; it is difficult, but it would be necessary for states to undertake it. They can start with national standardized tests that are purely informative, without the need to vary the itineraries, although it’s crucial to understand the reality. Subsequently, the results can be disseminated in educational centres to rectify what isn’t working. Concurrently, exams can be conducted, but it’s vital to carry out evaluations at the end of each cycle, as is done by the Flemish in Belgium at the end of primary school, or in Portugal, in the fourth year, according to the completion of stages in each country.

Nuno Crato: “The issue with centralization is that it propagates not only virtues but also errors. However, it would be beneficial to progress towards some standardization at the European level in evaluations, for instance, on a sample basis, not census”.

Regarding the latter, it’s not straightforward and I’m unsure if it’s desirable. The issue with centralization is that it propagates not only virtues but also errors. However, it would be beneficial to progress towards some standardization at the European level in evaluations, for instance, on a sample basis, not census. PISA is a start, but it’s merely a beginning.

Francisco López Rupérez: Census standardized tests serve the purpose of providing feedback relative to each student, each centre, each region; if there is no feedback, the system becomes clumsy and unintelligent. Diagnostic evaluations – samples – are already conducted through PISA, PIRLS and TIMSS. The EU should bolster evaluation as a tool for improvement, for instance, through a recommendation to the states that still do not participate in those. However, the treaties permit us to go further and progress towards a common educational policy in a few key issues, and evaluation – and its use – is one of them.

Does the evaluation determine the curriculum or does the curriculum determine the evaluation?

Nuno Crato: There are numerous layers to a curriculum, each indicating specific objectives. The evaluation process must align with the curriculum. An asymmetric evaluation that doesn’t correspond to the prescribed curriculum is ineffective. It’s crucial that all elements are coordinated.

Looking ahead to the PISA report, what can we expect for the next one, in three years?

Francisco López Rupérez: There’s a general issue and a particularly Spanish one. The PISA scores in Spain have consistently declined since the first edition in 2000. Without making absolute statements, I’m sceptical about seeing improvements. My pessimism is grounded in rational analysis. What do we know about the critical variables that most significantly impact performance and student outcomes? There are three key areas: teachers, school management, and curriculum. No impactful reforms have been implemented in any of these areas. For teachers, there have been no significant changes for at least the past twenty years. The same applies to school management. Changes have only occurred in the curricular field. Specifically, the latest reform, the LOMLOE, has led to a dilution of knowledge. Without knowledge, there are no competencies, which means students will struggle more with competency-oriented exams. Another significant error is the adoption of a maximalist approach: all the competencies of the European framework have been introduced across all subjects and school stages simultaneously, without preparing the teachers beforehand. Without precise reforms, it’s impossible for us to improve.

Francisco López Rupérez: “All the competencies of the European framework have been introduced across all subjects and school stages simultaneously, without preparing the teachers beforehand. Without precise reforms, it’s impossible for us to improve”.

Nuno Crato: I agree with Francisco: beginning with competencies is a flawed approach. If you aspire to be a pianist, you don’t start by playing a Schubert sonata, but by learning solfeggio. While solfeggio isn’t a final competency, it’s a necessary skill and knowledge base for playing well. Countries that prioritize knowledge are the ones that enhance competencies. Furthermore, without policies that evaluate results, there’s no scope for improvement, so I would also emphasize the importance of evaluation. It’s essential to know where you stand.

The latest measures of the Spanish government in educational matters following the PISA report, include, for instance, incentivizing teachers who incorporate a socio-emotional aspect into their mathematics instruction.

Francisco López Rupérez: I have a suspicion that this allocation of 500 million euros, aimed at “encouraging” teachers who undertake this task, might be a mechanism to bolster the LOMLOE and its philosophy. There seems to be a reversal of priorities. Instead of viewing competency as a byproduct of knowledge, it’s probable that a strategy will be implemented that essentially seeks to solidify the foundations and curricular direction of the Law itself. Moreover, there are existing ideologies which harbour a significant degree of dogmatism. Pedagogism – not to be confused with Pedagogy – in my view, has a substantial element of this. When things take a turn for the worse, these ideologies retreat and seize the opportunity to re-emerge. We are witnessing it. The extreme left, dressed in postmodern ‘Lagartera’ style¹, reappears when circumstances suggest or permit.

Is ideology in education an end or a means?

Nuno Crato: Education shouldn’t be a matter of left or right. However, there exists a certain left that politicizes it, just as a certain right does. But there is a left that advocates for rigorous, demanding, structured teaching. Throughout the 20th century, education served as a means for the working class to assert themselves, a social ladder that was left behind. The perspective of a radical left individual like Gramsci is quite clear. The only way for the working class to advance is through rigorous education, the same as for the most economically privileged classes. For instance, [and at this juncture in the interview Crato reviews several books by the Italian Marxist theorist], Gramsci posits that during primary school, a phase of academic discipline and rigor is necessary, and perhaps later, in secondary school, the student can begin to formulate ideas for themselves based on the facts. In the anthology Sotto la Mole, Gramsci also refutes the notion that a baby is born with everything that they will later develop throughout their life. On the contrary, he believes that a person’s life is historically determined and under coercion, in the educational sense. Thus, this communist author criticizes the idealist position that incorporates chaotic principles and values into personality development.

Francisco López Rupérez: For these ideologies, education is a means. Educational reforms are a means that is integrated into the “grand politics”. The risk of having distorted the competency approach to favour that radical, dogmatic, postmodern left-wing ideology – not for the enlightened left that essentially aligns with classical liberalism in the value it assigns to education – is that education becomes a tool of social engineering.

Is transversality in education possible?

Nuno Crato: I am neither overly optimistic nor overly pessimistic. We must all value knowledge for student learning. If we examine the PISA data, we will conclude that it is better to opt for it. It would be appropriate to adopt a less dogmatic and more realistic perspective. Many of these educational proposals that we have today are fanciful, they scorn knowledge. If we concentrate on knowledge, things can change.

Francisco López Rupérez: It would be wonderful if there was a basic consensus among those of us who view education as a tool for the development of the individual and, by extension, for the development of society. Transversality could be possible in the long-term following a resounding political defeat and a renewal of social democracy.

Francisco López Rupérez: “In wokism, there is a lot of postmodern thought, and that is the paradigm that the left in power has adopted. In Spain, it is predominant. It is the first time this has happened, but the nightmare can persist”.

In wokism, there is a lot of postmodern thought, and that is the paradigm that the left in power has adopted. In Spain, it is predominant. It is the first time this has happened, but the nightmare can persist.

The PP advocates for a unified EBAU (Baccalaureate Assessment to Access University) across the eleven Autonomous Communities it governs. This proposal has been met with various criticisms, one of which pertains to the challenges of its implementation.

Eugenio Nasarre: I am in favour of this initiative. The PP, due to its significant territorial influence, governing 70% of the population in the Autonomous Communities, and playing a substantial role therein, has a responsibility to steer policies in the right direction. The observed inequalities in the EBAU test – which are highly unfair to students when selecting a university career – would be mitigated; if executed correctly, this initiative could yield positive effects towards a common education.

This test would be implemented in 2025 and I believe that the most convenient adaptation would be to conduct it on the same day, with identical tests and evaluation criteria. The first and third aspects are straightforward: prepare the examiners to apply those same criteria. The challenge lies in the second aspect: for the tests to be common, the curriculum must be common. In my view, it is crucial that in the coming months, the educational teams of these Autonomous Communities review their approved curricula and make necessary modifications to standardize them. There is ample time from now until summer to accomplish this.

Eugenio Nasarre: “For the tests [EBAU] to be common, the curriculum must be common. In my view, it is crucial that in the coming months, the educational teams of these Autonomous Communities review their approved curricula and make necessary modifications to standardize them. There is ample time from now until summer to accomplish this”.

Some argue that if the test is more difficult in these communities than in others, the more unconventional and minority ones such as Catalonia, Basque Country, and Navarra would be favoured. And, if not joined, Asturias and Castilla La Mancha. I find this observation misleading and incorrect. Ultimately, students with the easiest test will be the most disadvantaged. The standard must be reasonably demanding.

Nuno Crato: In 1926, the United States introduced the SAT (SAT Reasoning Test). This optional test has been utilized by numerous prestigious universities as a national entrance exam to evaluate the most prepared students, irrespective of their socioeconomic status. While some universities initially viewed this test with scepticism, arguing that it exacerbated inequalities, it is now recognized that institutions like MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) and Dartmouth – which had previously withdrawn – have more diverse classes and greater minority access to university with the SAT. It has been demonstrated that national standardized tests promote greater equity.

Francisco López Rupérez: “The ideal scenario, from perspectives of equity, demand, and preparation, would be a test that concludes the baccalaureate, like the French model”.

Francisco López Rupérez: The ideal scenario, from perspectives of equity, demand, and preparation, would be a test that concludes the baccalaureate, like the French model. This test restores the State’s authority to issue degrees. Universities should participate in this scheme, but with the state’s responsibility of ensuring equity across the national territory. Universities naturally strive to maximize their influence, but catering to this claim will inevitably introduce inequality into the system for obvious reasons.

France operates a centralized educational system, contrasting with Spain’s model, which allows up to 50% of the curriculum to be transferred across its seventeen Autonomous Communities. How can a common test, requiring a standardized curriculum, be implemented within the Spanish model?

Francisco López Rupérez: The issue with Spain is that we’ve been veering towards extreme decentralization, neglecting the exclusive competencies that Article 149 of the Constitution assigns to the State in educational matters. One of these competencies is the establishment of conditions for issuing degrees. If we delegate this competency to universities, we are effectively weakening the constitutional framework. It’s no coincidence that degrees are issued without any State intervention and that the test is not linked to the degree.

Eugenio Nasarre: The Constitution explicitly states that the State establishes the conditions for issuing degrees, and these conditions are not merely formal but substantive. Therefore, the State has the responsibility of designing and ensuring that the Autonomous Communities adhere to these conditions in line with constitutional loyalty. During the first fifteen years of our Constitution, there was a common curriculum that went unquestioned. When the LOGSE was drafted, at the request of Convergència i Unió (the nationalist party of Catalonia), this group agreed to support the law in exchange for dividing the curriculum into an autonomous part and another part belonging to the State.

Eugenio Nasarre: “The Constitution explicitly states that the State establishes the conditions for issuing degrees, and these conditions are not merely formal but substantive. Therefore, the State has the responsibility of designing and ensuring that the Autonomous Communities adhere to these conditions in line with constitutional loyalty”.

The most logical solution is to establish a common curricular core with additions in those subjects they wish to reinforce or emphasize. These would be “autonomous appendices” to a common curriculum, which would be perfectly legitimate. The PP initiative could have positive effects, especially if it is directed in this manner.

One of the proposals currently under consideration in the field of education is to extend compulsory schooling until the age of eighteen. This idea has not been without its critics, particularly among teachers.

Francisco López Rupérez: Nuno Crato successfully implemented this in Portugal. We have analysed the comparative evolution of Spain and Portugal in relation to early school dropout rates. Moreover, Portuguese academics specializing in applied economics have, through econometric calculations, arrived at two conclusions. First of all, the existence of a causal relationship with a decrease in school dropout rates. Secondly, those who have benefitted most from this measure have been students from disadvantaged backgrounds.

We proposed this idea in September 2015 during the Plenary of the State School Council, when I was president. Subsequently, we developed a scientific monograph on the benefits and costs that it would entail.

I understand the scepticism of teachers. However, this measure, whose positive results in the medium and long term are empirically established, does not aim to confine students to their desks until they are eighteen, which is their main concern. It should be accompanied by a structural reform of secondary education. In Spain, we have a structure of four – the compulsory, from 12 to 16 -, plus two – post-compulsory, from 16 to 18. In most EU countries, the structure is three (lower secondary) plus three (upper secondary). Another aspect is the flexibility of itineraries and the reconciliation of training and employment, for those who have it. And the third pillar, the strengthening of Dual Vocational Training.

Nuno Crato: “I believe that extending the obligation to eighteen years is very necessary for our countries (…). In Portugal, it meant that 20% of students who did not continue studying did so. But it is important that the quality of the system does not drop”.

Nuno Crato: I believe that extending the obligation to eighteen years is very necessary for our countries. Education must be increasingly comprehensive, as the demands of society and the economy are also increasing. We need people with better training. It is a measure that benefits above all the most disadvantaged classes. In Portugal, it meant that 20% of students who did not continue studying did so. But it is important that the quality of the system does not drop. We took some measures in that sense. The itineraries were adapted for students who wanted a more practical training, such as Vocational Training, or special supports for those with more difficulties. It is not enough to simply extend schooling.

Observing the varied reactions among the different EU countries, could a common educational policy be feasible?

Francisco López Rupérez: Ten years ago, I maintained in writing the defence of moving towards a common European policy for education. In accordance with the treaties, education is one of the few areas where the principle of subsidiarity operates (giving priority of action to the most restricted unit). However, in the consolidated version of the EU Treaty, it is stated that the Union “will approve and complete the actions of governments” in educational matters. In its literal sense, a gate is opened to the possibility of establishing some common policies. Just as a European framework of key competences was defined, which served as a pretext for some for a rather unhinged development, the EU now has, in view of the results, the political and moral obligation to review it. Surely there will be countries that pressure the European Commission to reconsider the matter.

A decade ago, I advocated in writing for the progression towards a common European policy for education. In line with the treaties, education is one of the few areas where the principle of subsidiarity applies (prioritising action to the most localised unit). However, in the consolidated version of the EU Treaty, it is stated that the Union “will approve and supplement the actions of governments” in educational matters. Taken literally, this opens the door to the possibility of establishing some common policies. Just as a European framework of key competences was defined, which served as a pretext for some for a rather uncontrolled development, the EU now has, in light of the results, the political and moral obligation to review it. Undoubtedly, there will be countries that pressure the European Commission to reconsider the matter.

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¹ Traditional clothing of Lagartera, a town in Spain known for its colourful garment. The phrase “dressed in Lagartera style” is used metaphorically to describe someone who is trying to attract attention or stand out, either intentionally or unintentionally.

 

Eugenio Nasarre. Degree in Philosophy, Law, Political Science, and Journalism. He was a professor of Political Law at San Pablo CEU University. Director of the Cabinet of the Minister of Education. Shadow Secretary of the Ministry of Culture. Director of RTVE. Secretary General of Education. Deputy to the Cortes Generales in the 7^th, 8^th, 9^th, and 10^th legislatures. President of the Education Committee of the Congress of Deputies and spokesperson for the PP (Popular Party) in that Committee. President of the Spanish General Council of the European Movement. Vice President of the Values and Society Foundation. Member of the International Jacques Maritain Institute. Decorated with the Grand Cross of the Civil Order of Alfonso X the Wise and the Order of Constitutional Merit.

 

Nuno Crato. Degree in Economics, Doctor in Applied Mathematics and researcher. Minister of Education and Science of Portugal (2011-2015). Professor at the Higher Institute of Economics and Management (ISEG), University of Lisbon. He has been vice-rector of the Technical University of Lisbon. He has worked for the Higher Institute of Economics, the University of the Azores, the Stevens Institute of Technology, and the New Jersey Institute of Technology. European Science Award granted by the European Commission. In 2008, President Cavaco Silva appointed him commander of the Order of Infante Don Enrique and in 2016 Grand Cross of the same order. In 2022, President Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa distinguished him with the Grand Cross of the Order of Public Instruction.

 

Francisco López Rupérez. Doctor in Physical Sciences. Director of the Chair of Educational Policies at Camilo José Cela University. Professor of Secondary Education Institute. He has held many positions throughout his career, including: President of the State School Council. Director of the Spanish Lyceum of Paris. Director General of Educational Centres and Secretary General of Education and Vocational Training of the Ministry of Education and Culture. Deputy Minister of Education of the Community of Madrid. Education Advisor in the Permanent Delegations of Spain to the OECD and to UNESCO, based in Paris. National Award for Educational Innovation and Research. Decorated with the Grand Cross of the Civil Order of Alfonso X the Wise.

Source: educational EVIDENCE

Rights: Creative Commons