Interview with Josep Vicenç Mestre, historian and specialist in oratory

Josep Vicenç Mestre: “Research is an uneasy and thankless job”

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Andreu Navarra

Josep Vicenç Mestre (Òdena, 1990) has just published two dense and voluminous books in the publishing house Afers: ‘Paraules de president. Nació i Estat als discursos de Prat de la Riba, Puig i Cadafalch i ‘Macià’ and ‘Nació i Estat. L’’intent d’encaix entre Catalunya i Espanya (1833-1933)’. As if the simultaneous publication of two such ambitious works were not strange enough, the dual nature of Dr. Mestre, speaker and historian at the same time, it adds interest to his professional profile.

Prat, Puig or Macià? Which one would you stay with?

Hard to choose. Prat de la Riba was a young-old man, an ideologue amalgamating several Catalanist currents, who’s aim wat to translate his ideas and words into a tangible political project. On the other hand, Puig i Cadafalch was a pragmatic architect who wanted to apply the ideals of Prat and who intended to nationalize the Principality, with an intense look towards the past. Finally, Macià was an old-young man, a non-conformist dreamer, an undaunted idealist who adapted to the context, an affable Grandfather who walked around the territory to strengthen the meager political power of the self-government of the Republican Generalitat. None of the three was a great orator in the strict sense, but with their words they transformed the Catalonia of their time.

“None of the three [Prat de la Riba, Puig Cadafalch and Macià]  was a great orator in the strict sense, but with their words they transformed the Catalonia of their time”

If I’m not mistaken, the books you’ve just published are the result of your doctoral thesis, directed by professor Pich i Mitjana (UPF)… How was the writing process? How did you find your way around the maze?

Indeed, these two books represent two-thirds of the whole of the doctorate, which was awarded the Prize for the best doctoral thesis in Catalan from the UPF. It is worth saying that we have rewritten some fragments that were very academic, in order to turn them into two popular works. Despite the fact that between the two they have more than a thousand pages, they are not difficult to read, since they filter the knowledge of almost all the historians who talk about Prat, Puig and Macià, in a relaxed and direct way.

The writing process was difficult, because I had to do it at night during the period in which I was Chief of Cabinet of the Council of Economy. During the pandemic I read a lot – a lot. I underlined the books that were interesting for the subject, I underlined them and made summaries with hundreds of citations. In this way, I reached the last six months with more than 2,000 pages of references from dozens of history books and primary sources.

Since I was very clear about the thesis, the research questions and the answers, the most difficult job was to create a story that made sense to the reader and that gave a reliable answer to the research object. It was a very lonely and hard task, but it was worth it.

Who are the recent historians who have influenced you the most, and why?

Let me sweep «pro domo». Instead of telling you Tony Judt, Eric Hobsbawm or Margaret Macmillan, which also, my historical training has more to do with the great Catalan names of reference, from Josep Termes to Borja de Riquer, through Jaume Sobrequés, Jordi Casassas, Agustí Colomines, Arnau González-Vilalta, Joan Esculies, among many others. And, if you allow me, I will specify three that have marked me personally.

First, Josep Fontana. I remember a conference at the UPF, where we were able to discuss the history of Catalonia for a couple of hours. At the end, he gave us a piece of advice that I have kept forever in my memory: “the study of primary sources does not serve to dig them up from the bottom of archives to bury them at the bottom of libraries”. This sentence has marked my historiographic research and determined that it was as important to find an interesting topic as to make it interesting for the general public.

Second, Enric Ucelay-Da Cal, a genius with a depth of enormous content and a provocative character, who was looking for flashy headlines for his historical theory. I really enjoyed his master’s classes, because it was like a story in which you chose the ending. You could start with blitzkrieg and end with pink legend and black legend.

And in third, and the one that has marked me the most, is Josep Pich i Mitjana. He directed me to do the master’s degree in world history and the doctorate in the subject. If it hadn’t been for him, for his drive and persistence, I most likely wouldn’t be here. I have learned from his discipline and constancy, from his modesty and at the same time enthusiasm to study and understand political Catalanism.

What is ECO?

Strategy, Communication and Oratory SL. It’s the company I founded a year and a half ago. We are dedicated to consulting for private companies and public institutions in the field of communication, as well as public speaking training for high-ranking officials. I have translated the experience acquired in recent years in public administration to earn my living in the private sector.

For over a year I was combining my teaching work at the university with research and with institutional advice, passing through the Parliament of Catalonia on two occasions and in managerial tasks in three ministries of the Government of the Generalitat. You could say that at night I studied the speeches of past presidents while, by day, I prepared speeches and managed the cabinets of current politicians.

Why did the appearance of ‘Lo Catalanisme’ disturb Catholic Catalanist circles so much?

The particularism of Almirall encouraged regeneration, while the Catholic traditionalism of Torras i Bages sought restoration. Catalanism started from progressive liberal principles, republicans, and started from rural bases but encouraged urban progressivism, which tended to defend federalism. In contrast, the Catalan tradition started from conservative Catholic principles, it was rather monarchical and, in this case, the bases were fully rural popular and defended a regionalist model.

Almirall was more voluntarist, while Torras was more essentialist. They are our Renan and Herder, respectively. They were the two impulses of systole-diastole that centrifuge Catalanist thought. This is when Prat de la Riba comes to be able to amalgamate them, to concentrate them, to find the points of consensus to agglutinate a great movement against Spanish assimilation and in favor of (imperialist) regionalism that was looking for a model of a composed state that would have satisfied both Admiral and Torras.

What is a State and what is a Nation? Has anyone solved this successfully?

A State is a set of people located in a certain territory and organized with political institutions, through which they make decisions to be able to live in community. In addition, these organizations defined by people in a territory must be recognized by other similar entities at an international level. Politically speaking, we cannot talk about the State until well into the 19th century.

“As Fontana points out, «if clarifying what the State is is difficult, defining the nation is even more so»”

On the other hand, the problem with the theory of the nation and nationalism lies in its complex nature. There is no single, valid definition for all nations, as several exist and may change over time. As Fontana points out, “if clarifying what the State is is difficult, defining the nation is even more so. (…) The nation is often confused with the state”. Although sometimes the nation and the State are assimilated, in this book you will be able to check the differences, which can sometimes intermingle, but which in others are only concomitant.

Why was the Commonwealth so important?

In the words of Prat de la Riba, in the speech on the constitution of the Commonwealth of April 6, 1914: The Commonwealth closes one period and opens another, begins another. We close the period that begins with the fall of Barcelona, ​​with the Nova Planta decree, with the suppression of the Council of Cent and the Generalitat; and we start another one, which is tomorrow, which is the future, which is the unknown; but a yet unknown event that the awareness of our right and our strength, and the direction of the universal currents, which are not yet reached but still creating, assure us that it will be triumphant for Catalonia and of close brotherhood with the other Hispanic peoples”.

This was the initial will of the Commonwealth. With the background, of course, of providing Catalonia with a body of State that would give meaning to the national soul. In Prat’s own words, from the second speech we analyze in the book, dated May 14, 1917:

It is time to solve the problem of its content, its attributions. We did not create the Commonwealth to have a larger Provincial Government, nor to give the Catalan soul a small subordinate, secondary body of administration: a province. All of us, going more or less further, some stopping soon, some still seeing far off the end of their ideal, we all want a body of State for Catalonia, we all feel that the dignity of the Catalan popular will imperatively demands, more or less accentuated or attenuated, forms of State.

How do you think the issue of “the fit” (or not) between Catalonia and Spain is right now?

Ferran Requejo says that “with history you don’t understand everything; but without history nothing is understood”. That’s why, if you take a walk in the book of Nation and State, you will realize that, as much as you try to fit a puzzle that doesn’t fit, the situation is entangled. Many efforts have been made to decentralize the Spanish State, which have been countered by periods of extreme assimilationist centralism. This has led some historians to see that the  devolution done by the «State of Autonomies» of the 1978 regime was quite close to Prat de la Riba’s ideal of a composite State. He would have only given distinction to the four historical nationalities and, if he had been able to influence them, he would have increased the degree of de facto federalism that was imposed.

In any case, to make statements about what Prat would have wanted would be to make a uchrony, it would be to make fictional history. That is why, if you ask me today as a historian, I have to refrain, because we are still living in the current moment. If you ask me as a citizen, I think that matching is impossible because there is an overlapping consensus, which Rawls was talking about. If there are different worldviews, the only thing that can be achieved is a cohabitation. But for it to be there, you need a willingness to understand “the other” in an honest and generous way.

What do you think of Aragonès and Illa?

They are presidents who have defended and defend their ideals legitimately.

Aragonès, as he acknowledges in the foreword he wrote to me in Words of the President (I want to remind you that I have the honor that all the former presidents of the Generalitat (alive and healthy) have written lines that add value to the book), wanted to “build nation”. His language revolved around the whole of Catalonia, a concept reminiscent of Prat’s “entire Catalonia”. He has been   an independentist president who has exercised the autonomy diminished by 155. He has had neither the conditions nor the opportunism sufficient to find the loophole to expand the self-government he was looking for.

“Both have made an effort – and will do so even more – to mark a moderate language, without stridency, looking more for technocracy than enthusiasm”

On the other hand, Illa has made it clear from his shadow government that he wants a Spanishized Catalonia. He has remarked that he will defend Catalan, that he will restore the presidential figures who have preceded him, but at the same time he has brought the Spanish flag into the presidential office, for the first time since 1978.

Both have made an effort – and will do so even more – to mark a moderate language, without stridency, looking more for technocracy than enthusiasm. They have been the product of their national sentiment and also of their particular model of State.

What are your near projects?

I will soon be a father for the second time. Laura and I are parents to Nil, one and a half years old, and now we will have Mar. This will bring immense joy and, at the same time, a commitment to family that will come before everything else.

Professionally, we will continue rowing in the private sector from ECO and teaching at the university.

And I’ll have to reserve the nights to do research. If It comes that ‘Paraules de president’ and ‘Nació i Estat’ go on well,  I will continue the research with Companys, Irla, Tarradellas, Pujol, Maragall, Montilla, Mas, Puigdemont, Torra, Aragonès and Illa. And I hope that very soon there will be a female president, too, as men have 133 positions of advantage.

Research is an uneasy and thankless job. I’d say it’s even hard and and lonely. But it’s worth it, since in order to move society forward, we need to educate ourselves in the knowledge of the past so we don’t make the same mistakes or, at the very least, understand who we are today and who we want to be tomorrow.

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[1] Fontana, J. (1999). Introducción al estudio de la historia. Barcelona: Crítica, p. 203.

Source: educational EVIDENCE

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